In a certain sense we don't know anything. I could be a brain in a vat connected to the matrix, you might not exist at all, but are merely a figment of my imagination, we could both just be a part of someone's dream. We can never be sure that some craziness like this isn't happening, in that sense we don't know anything. But this definition of knowledge isn't useful, and it's not really the way we use the word except when we talk about god or perhaps during drunk philosophical conversations (seriously, I throw great parties).
If I hold a pencil out at eye level and let go, it is possible that a glitch in the matrix will make it hover, it is possible that an alien has a tractor beam on it that will pull it to the ceiling when I let go, it is possible that god will perform a miracle and make it fly against the wall instead of toward the floor. In this sense, there are incredibly low probability things that could happen and we can't say with 100% certainty what will happen next, and yet we are all comfortable saying that we know the pencil will simply fall to the ground. Why is it that in this example everyone is perfectly happy to say they know for sure what will happen to the pencil, but when we talk about god people are so quick to fall into this "we can't know anything for sure" nonsense?
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The only other wrinkle here is what is meant by a God. In these discussions people will often back up to a deist God who created the universe and then was hands off. They have a point there, in relation to that God it makes sense to be an agnostic atheist. But let's be honest, that is not the God we are usually talking about. We are talking about Yahweh, a God who knows everything, has absolute power, cares about us, and interferes in our lives. This God doesn't exist, it just doesn't make any sense.
I think for any reasonable definition of knowledge, I can safely say that I know Yahweh doesn't exist. Am I going to start calling myself a gnostic atheist? I don't know, I imagine it would cause more problems than it would solve even though I think it is accurate. I can hear it now, people would say that I now have accepted the burden of proof and have to prove that God doesn't exist. But let's think back to our examples of Santa and the easter bunny. We are all perfectly comfortable saying we know they don't exist. We are gnostic a-santa-ists, we are gnostic a-bunists, where is our burden of proof there? I imagine we are all happy with the lack of evidence where we would expect evidence to be. Why isn't that enough for yahweh?
As far as I'm concerned, to say that you "know" something, you have to be able to demonstrate some basis by which you have come to that knowledge. Far too many people misuse the word, they conflate "knowledge" with "belief". This is especially true of the religious who claim to "know" that God exists. How do they know? They can't be bothered to explain that.
ReplyDeleteWhat is something you would say you know?
DeleteWhat about Santa, would you go as far as saying you know that he doesn't exist?
Even Santa, which we understand was a creation of the Coca Cola company in the early 1900s, we cannot know, to any degree of absolute certainty, doesn't exist. It is just absurdly unlikely. Like God.
DeleteSo the definition of knowledge here is basically absolute certainty, and under that definition we really can't know anything. No matter how likely we think something is, there is always a possibility that we are wrong. I'm curious, would you that there is anything that we know?
DeleteThis is certainly not the typical usage of the word knowledge, in everyday use, when we say we know something we really mean that we have a pretty damn high degree of certainty. I think what was really on my mind when I wrote the original post was how annoying it is when people switch back and forth between different uses of the word. I think it is not terribly uncommon for someone to use the 100% certain version of knowledge in one sentence, and the colloquial use in the next. It makes arguing with them difficult and annoying.
Invite me to one of your "drunk" philosophical party's! I bet I could learn some important knowledge there. :)
ReplyDeleteMy thought on your question is, there are some things we do "know" for certain, like the names of our children. There are some things we will never know...like where we came from or if there was any "intelligence" involved in the creation of earth and what grows on it.
I see no importance in attaching a label to whether or not we believe in God. I doubt the existence of one, but am not going so far as to say, I "know" for certain when I "know" no one does.
I watched the memorial this morning in Boston, and listened to those who spoke so beautifully of their faith, including the President...and I wondered. Even is there isn't a God...at times like these...the comfort faith gives so many is well worth having...whether there is "intelligent" grounds for it or not.
It's when that "faith" goes haywire as in the minds of fanatical bombers and terrorist...God gets to be a problem.
Those parties were a great time, alas, grad school is a thing of that past, oh well.
DeleteI like your example of names of children, or names of anything really. A name is really just a label we have put on something. Even if you are a brain in a vat and you are experiencing a simulation, those labels still apply to those simulated things.
I'm curious of other things that you would say you know though. I don't know why I'm so stuck on this, but what about santa and the easter bunny? Would you say that you know they aren't real? If so, what is it about it that makes you comfortable saying yes, I know they aren't real. If no, what is holding you back?
I'm comfortable saying I "know" Santa and the Easter bunny are not real because I "know" they are fables. As for God not being real...I don't "know" that. I suspect it...but I don't "know" it.
DeleteAs for anything "holding me back," I'm unaware of what. I've reached a point in my life I will express what I feel I "know" and let those who doubt it debate it. :)
I'd add that there's a difference between not believing in something and believing that something doesn't exist. I've always felt that this is the difference between atheism and agnosticism. Theists will often claim to "know" that god(s) exist, then in the next breath, they talk about faith. Religion (including atheism) isn't about knowledge, it's about belief.
ReplyDeleteThat's a really good point. I don't believe in God, I also believe that God doesn't exist. The second statement is much stronger, and yet many people don't see a difference at all.
DeleteMost people who defiantly or faithfully believe in God refuse to even think about the possibility they might be wrong because it was ingrained in them as children by their parents.
DeleteSooner or later they find out it isn't Santa or the bunny who leaves gifts and eggs...but they never question faith in God because it's not the socially acceptable thing to do.
"refuse to even think about the possibility they might be wrong"
Deletethat's a good point. That is definitely a big component of why I argued so vehemently before I left Christianity. Part of me deep down knew something was up, and I refused to explore that possibility for a long time. It really ate at me though.
Hausdorff...I know that "ate at me" feeling well. Have you ever wondered how and why Jesus left his indoctrinated Jewish faith in his footsteps and began to preach a gentler and kinder doctrine...that his followers totally screwed up after he "disappeared?
DeleteDo you think he was "told" he was the Messiah and that's why he felt called upon to "supposedly" preach his own views of the old testaments? Or did they decide he was the Messiah century's after he died and that's why we don't know hardly anything about his life...which was probably pretty normal for an intellectual at the time...traveling, learning, deciphering?
Those are good questions, and I don't think there's any way to really know these things. You mentioned that his life was probably pretty normal, my understanding is that messiah figures were somewhat a dime a dozen at that time. In fact, I have heard some say that the stories about Jesus are an amalgam of stories about many different people. Again, no way to know if this is really true, but it seems like a definite possibility to me.
DeleteAgreed! It is really that simple!
ReplyDeleteI trust gravity in the same way that I trust there is no god. So I am an atheist to the same degree that I accept gravity, wish everyone was :)
This really is the heart of what I was thinking about. People can mean varied things when they say "knowledge", but however it is used I like a little consistency :)
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