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Tuesday, July 30, 2013
You Don't Know What I'm Thinking
I was having a conversation on twitter with a Christian who was using the tired old line that atheists just want to sin, they know God exists but they pretend he doesn't so they can do whatever they want. I see this line of argument a lot and it gets under my skin so I figured I would engage. I asked him if he thought it was possible for someone to simply not believe God exists. He said no, everyone knows God exists, then cited a bible verse as proof. I told him that I don't believe in God and asked if he thinks I'm lying. He tried to avoid the question but ultimately said yes, I must be lying.
This really gets on my nerves, and demonstrates that they are not interested in conversing or understanding our position, they simply want to preach to us (I know, I know, big surprise). They have their idea about what is going on in my mind and there is nothing I can say that will disabuse them of it. It's quite insulting and arrogant of them. I have my ideas about what is going on in the heads of Christians, but I am constantly trying to find out if I'm right. I like to ask them what they think about things and see what they say. It isn't terribly uncommon for me to find new Christian perspectives on various topics, honestly, understanding how people think is one of my favorite things about blogging. Sometime people are deceptive, but for the most part I believe people when they tell me what they think about something. I just wish they would extend me the same courtesy.
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I think sometimes Christians believe that there are no real atheists, just those who reject God for whatever reason, in order to protect their world view. It may be that at some level, they realize how wicked it would be to punish someone for eternity who did not even know that God existed. On the other hand, if "atheists" know God exists, and yet they reject His offer of salvation anyway, then maybe they are getting what they deserve...
ReplyDeleteYeah, that is a good point, it is somewhat of a requirement once hell is on the table.
DeleteNo you pretend Allah doesn't exist, so you can sin. ;)
ReplyDeletePsychology is an interesting subject, debates with theists are only the tip of the iceberg. There is way more interesting and scary stuff in psychology.
yeah, psychology is pretty cool. My wife's degree is in psych, there are a lot of neat things I get to talk about with her and her colleagues.
DeleteWhat I wonder is how they would explain some like me, whose lifestyle hasn't changed much since deconverting.
ReplyDeletePart of it is playing the part since I am not out yet, but when it comes to many things they would consider "sinful", like alcohol, I have really no interest in for the most part.
Better yet, how do the explain the fact that many states do not have a single person in their person system who is an atheist?
I feel like if anything I'm a more moral person since leaving christianity. I've heard other people say similar things.
DeleteI agree, same here, there's more accountability when you realize there's no god to turn to in order to grant forgiveness, you alone are accountable for your own actions.If you screw up, you have to go the the person you harmed and ask for their forgiveness, and you have to forgive yourself (which to someone like me, can actually be the harder thing to do).
DeleteI feel like at the very least, I'm more honest to myself about who I really am, for better or for worse
Exactly Sheldon. I'm an out atheist, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, I don't sleep around, I don't break the law, I work hard, I pay my mortgage, I don't know what all these sins I'm supposedly trying to commit are, I wish someone would enlighten me.
ReplyDeleteI don't judge people who take part in most of those activities, but I myself have no interest in them, I just wonder how they try to explain away people like you and me.
DeleteMaybe Hausdorff should ask some of them, and tell us the results. ;)
I wonder if they would say that we are lying for the sake of argument, or that we are the exception instead of the norm among atheists.
My guess is they would say you are lying, it seems like it would be a very similar discussion as the one that sparked this post.
DeleteThey don't explain us away, they just pretend we don't exist, that's the only way they can handle outliers.
DeleteThe argument of objective morality is similar in that it assumes everyone's nature (or conscience) points to the same moral facts. I deny that homosexuality is morally wrong, but deep down I know it is.
ReplyDeletedo objective morality people think we all innately know the proper morality? It seems to me that they try to say we are inherently immoral and that is why we need god.
DeleteI've spoke to people who think objective morality is revealed through God's Word (the bible usually) and people who think it is written on all our souls (via our conscience usually) and people who alternate between the two.
DeleteOh, you're totally right, they do that whole "written on our souls" thing. But wait a minute...those same people do often say we are inherently immoral, you know, we deserve to be tortured for eternity and such. How do they square the two ideas?
DeleteKnowing what's right isn't the same as the desire to do right.
DeleteEven though I was raised a Christian, and left it to become an acknowledged Agnostic, I don't think my parents teaching me the difference between right and wrong was religion motivated. The thing they instilled that has remained the core of my morality was, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
ReplyDeleteGrundy mentioned that he deny's homosexuality is wrong but deep down he knows it is. I wondered how he "knows" that. I've known several gay folks and their morals are just as upstanding as any heterosexual I know. I truly believe they can't help their sexual orientation anymore than I can and who is to blame for them being born that way?
Even my parents, who think they got their morality from religion didn't really. Reading the bible has proven that to me, if it truly was biblically motivated they would have taught me a very different set of things.
DeleteI absolutely hate that passage in Romans that Christians refer to to justify that atheists are just deniers. It also is absurd to think that atheists "know" god is real but are suppressing it just to be naughty, because millions of Christians everyday knowingly sin and are blatant about it: they use birth control, have premarital sex, have abortions, gamble, drink, worship money, and are greedy self-righteous egomaniancs while still believing.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, Christians break their own rules all the time, but then they get guilty about it and ask God for forgiveness. If they really think that everyone knows God but atheists just ignore it so they can sin, perhaps they see themselves as atheists during their moments of indiscretion.
DeleteIf this is what they think atheism is, then they think we are always acting like they do when they are being "bad". They sin, then feel guilty, ask for forgiveness and try to not do it again. In their minds, we sin but never feel guilty and will be free to be bad at all times. I haven't thought about it in quite these terms, but it does seem to line up with what they are claiming. It's a shame they won't listen to us and understand they have the situation wrong.