This is from a post by The Wise Fool. I've been thinking about this type of thing a lot lately. Many atheists seem very interested in winning debates, or making theists look foolish. But I would like to change people's minds, and to do that we need to understand one another better.
This one is from Steve Shives at about 8:00 in a riffing on mail call video in response to someone bitching about insurance premiums going up because of Obamacare
This is what I don't understand about the people who want to repeal obamacare so bad. It's like they forget the old system was broken as fuck, and prices were rising like crazy. Obamacare is far from perfect, I wish the people who are against it would identify the shitty things about it and fix them rather than focus on repealing it. Or failing that, draft an alternate plan to put in it's place before repealing it.
This last one is from the Bitchspot Report #37 at about an hour in. Cephus was discussing the ridiculous talking point that people around the world hate us for our freedom.
The problem is, I do understand why theists believe the way they believe, it doesn't give me any better chance of curing them of their delusions because their beliefs are entirely delusional. I wish it was true but it's just not. :)
ReplyDeleteCephus...the same thing could be said about Atheist's by Theist's and that's why the battle rages on. No one knows for sure if one or the other is correct or mistaken and all we will ever be able to do about it is argue. :)
DeleteNo, they can't. Whereas most atheists were, at one time, theists and know exactly how the theist mindset works, theists usually cannot say that. They don't know how the rational mind works because most of them have never had to be rational in their religious lives. I know exactly how theists operate, I know how faith completely kills rational, intellectual, evidence-based thought, I'll tell theists exactly what they're thinking and why and they just stop talking to you because they can't handle knowing that you're in their head and know both sides.
DeleteHaving been a theist who is now an agnostic...I'm thinking that is quite a bunch of malarkey stating theist don't know how a "rational" mind works. I don't think I was irrational when I believed...nor do I believe you are "in my head or could ever get in there." :)
DeleteIt doesn't give you a way to just change their mind quickly, and it doesn't mean you can change everyone's mind, but I do think it gives you a better chance of communicating, which should increase the odds. I think "in the long run" is a very important part of that quote. I know it took me about a decade to change my mind, it takes a while to break through indoctrination.
DeleteSo true Hausdorff! But I don't think it's important nor possible to change everyone's mind. It took me decades of research before I came to my conclusions and I admit...I still have no idea if they are correct or not and that's why I call myself an agnostic. I see nothing wrong with faith based religion...my parents believed and they were certainly not irrational about it. It was what their parents believed and they were all as good as they come. I had personal experiences that caused me to question and change my mind but I still don't believe I am any more right or wrong than what others choose to believe. It's when religion or athesism is forced on you that it becomes an irrational curse. :D
DeleteIt is quite clear when debating theists that they do not understand how to evaluate their religious beliefs rationally. That doesn't mean that they can't compartmentalize their beliefs and act rationally in other ways, but religion and reason simply do not go together and we have a word for anyone who can evaluate their beliefs reasonably and rationally, with evidence aforethought. We call them an atheist.
DeleteThanks for the quote, Hausdorff. Shives is dead on, and I agree with you: I wish the complaining would stop and the fixing would start.
ReplyDelete@Cephus and Anna
I think there's a great tendency in humans, in general, to categorize things as black and white. I've seen atheists and theists alike make bone-headed statements defending their position... more so on the theist side, for sure, but that may just have to do with the larger theist population. :-)
I don't think it's fair to say that theists are irrational, at least not all of them. In fact, I've seen absolute brilliance of reasoning and logic demonstrated by the faithful within the framework of their faith; their worldview.
On the other hand, I have surely encountered the stubbornly delusional side of faith as well. And, much like Cephas says, it can be exasperating and apparently hopeless in trying to get them to see through their particular brand of delusion; knowing that they'll simply shut down or ignore contrary evidence.
So, I've argued that the goal should be to try to get people to understand other viewpoints to get people to change in the long run (because they certainly will not change at that instant in your conversation). It may go beyond simply listing scientific facts, but rather making it more personal: how you see the world around you, and how it corresponds to those facts. Make it personal to the extent that you can (though not via personal attacks). Let them see you as a real, rational person, not someone deluded by Satan. ;-) Because, in their minds, they are taking the rational position based on their world view. But I think that having an alternate view presented in a way that they can understand, despite their present world view, is at least one path towards getting people to fully recognize the truth.
Will it work? Not all the time. In fact, maybe even rarely. But if you know of another method of engagement that has a better success rate, I'm all ears. ;-)
I definitely think the most reasonable goal in arguing is a long term change. These beliefs are too ingrained and too emotional to think someone will change on a dime. I generally think of talking to myself at various stages of my journey and try to think of things that could have moved me along a bit faster.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, apart from trying to get people to change their minds about their religion, I like to try to get people to change their minds about atheists. They are told in church that we are evil, I think it is worth it to show them that this is not the case.
Hausdorff...I've never thought of atheists as evil and no one could convince me they are unless they act it. Same goes for theists. As for the long term change you propose, what would you want to change? Would you want to eliminate Christmas? Would you want to eradicate all Michelangelo's and Da Vinci's religious themed masterpieces? Would you want to bulldoze all the churches and temples and have everyone stop trusting in any kind of intelligent design? Would you want to trash all the "commandments" and allow folks to make up their own mind as to what is right and what is wrong? Would you ask that "their" god stop blessing America? What? Why do you feel it's so important to wipe out religion and the thousands of years it propelled humanity forward out of the Dark Ages? Does a confirmed atheist believe religion is so evil it must all be wiped from the face of the earth? I can't see that as being reasonable or rational. I'm just curious.:)
DeleteAs I said, I generally have a previous version of myself in mind, I grew up in a fundamentalist church. We are talking young earth creationism, science denial, homosexuals are bad, atheists are bad, etc. These are the kinds of things I think should be eradicated. I have much less of a problem with liberal religious types, but I still think they are wrong about a lot of stuff and enjoy engaging them about what they believe and why. One of the things I think should be changed is the fact that faith is generally seen as a virtue. Believing in something without good reason should not be praised.
DeleteAs for Christmas, I see no reason to get rid of that, it's largely secularized anyway. But even for other holidays, if people want to have fun and celebrate I think they should. Hell, my father in law is jewish, so we are doing Christmas and Hanukkah this year.
"Would you want to trash all the "commandments" and allow folks to make up their own mind as to what is right and what is wrong?"
This one though, yes, yes I would. A lot of the commandments are not that great, and they don't cover things that they should (slavery is a good example). We already make up our minds as to what is right and wrong.
I would just like to point out to Anna Maria that religion was the main force behind the Dark Ages, it was science that propelled us forward.
DeleteTom...granted, the early "Christian" rulers were barbaric and I don't agree with modern ones, but there are many ways to look at history's progress.
Delete"The so-called "Dark Ages" was also the period when Christianity spread through much of Europe, bringing enlightenment, knowledge and science. New monasteries were established which were the universities of their day, centers of science, learning, medicine and law, able to communicate with each other by well-developed networks, and capable of diffusing knowledge with remarkable efficiency. The life of the polymath scholar monk Bede is just one example of the intellectual revolution wrought by the spread of Christianity. Bede lived North Umbria,(modern-day north-east England) he was a theologian, historian and scientist, writing and researching prolifically and communicating with scholars across Europe."
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to you Hausdorff! Have fun and celebrate whatever you believe. I think all rational and reasonable folks want nothing more or less than peace on earth...with or without believing in a "god" they can't prove or disprove exists. :}
ReplyDelete